Sorry about fat-fingering a premature send...

On Sat, 21 Nov 2015 12:07:15 -0800, Jim Vassilakos
<xxxxxx@gmail.com> wrote:

>Now, what I'm seeing here is that the second paragraph doesn't really
>conform to the first. If the dream extended beyond what the dreamer
>perceives, then one would think that the shadowy figure would be
>potentially identifiable by the Visitor. In other words, there would be an
>actual follower who would have some sort of real existence outside the
>perception of the dreamer. But this creates problems, because it gives
>dreams a sort of independent reality, which I'm not really sure you want to
>introduce. (Well, maybe you do, in which case you can ignore the rest of
>this.)

No, it's not an independent reality; it's sort of an implicit extension
of what the dreamer (and Observer) would see - if the dreamer is
standing in the middle of a room, and what s/he sees looks like the
living room of his parents' house when s/he was a child, implicitly, the
entire room is there, including the part of the room s/he can't see
because it's behind him/her, and beyond that, the rest of the house
(although that can be less certain; maybe by walking through the door
that would normally lead to the hall, the dreamer will transition to
someplace different - it's a dream; it doesn't follow 'normal' rules).
If the dreamer feels s/he is being followed, but doesn't know by who,
then the Visitor should be able to see that something/someone is
following, but can't identify by who/what, just that there's something
there ("a shadowy figure"). To the extent that the dreamer _does_ know
who it _might_ be, the Visitor can and will also know that, but it
doesn't necessarily make the figure more distinct.

>Nonetheless, it does make sense that a Visitor should be able to get more
>information than a mere Observer. Interestingly, your mention of there
>being a list of individuals that might be available to a Visitor (but
>presumably not the an Observer) seems to underscore this point.

Exactly; the Visitor has access to more information connected to the
dream than the Observer does - a good description of the Observer might
be 'consomniar' (from [con, =with], and [somniare, =to dream]), or
'co-dreamer' - the Observer experiences the dream just as the dreamer
does, no more, no less, no control. The Visitor is more than a mere
consomniar; s/he has access to additional, 'supporting' material
connected with the dream, and can thus perceive the entirety of the
implicit environment of the dream.

If you would prefer an analogy with the performing arts, the Observer
sits in the audience with the dreamer watching the play; the Visitor can
wander around the stage and back-stage as well.

>Hence, what I would do if I were you is that I'd modify the first
>paragraph. Instead of talking about the self-consistency of the dream
>environment and the extension of that environment beyond the perceptions of
>the dreamer, it might be a better idea to simply say that a Visitor is
>privy to the significance and implications of the dream to the same extent
>as the dreamer, whereas the Observer is not. Hence, if the dream involves a
>shadowy figure, an observer would be left at a loss as to what exactly this
>means, whereas a Visitor would understand the meaning of the dream
>potentially up the same extent as the dreamer, perhaps even having a list
>of people who the dreamer is afraid of. By the same token, if there is some
>symbol in the dream that is meaningful to the dreamer, a visitor would at
>least have a chance to recognize its significance. whereas an observer
>would not. In this way, you can significantly put the powers of Visitors
>well above those of Observers without having to extend the the dream-space
>into some sort of alternate reality.

The thing is, the dream environment _is_ an 'alternate reality' of
sorts, one that is totally within the dreamer's mind while the dream is
in progress (only!), and which can be changed by the dreamer during the
dream (consciously, if the dreamer is a trained/experienced lucid
dreamer, or unconsciously otherwise). But, even though the dreamer must
necessarily have _all_ of the information to create the environment and
dream, s/he isn't necessarily _aware_ of it, and the 'reality' is that
generally, only enough of the 'world' to support the dream is created -
if the dream takes place on a deserted island beach, the rest of the
island may be there, and surrounded by ocean, but if there's no need for
it, there won't be a 'world' beyond the horizon, and even other parts of
the island may be 'undefined' (that is, they're there, but may not
appear as anything in particular to the Visitor).

As far as understanding meanings or implications... Even Observers can
remember a dream that they've 'walked'; they're not generally subject to
forgetting the dream the way that dreamers commonly do. At that point,
they can take the time to go over it and (if they have the relevant
skills) analyze it and extract meaning from it (and Tavrchedl' therapist
dreamwalkers do just that). Again, Visitors can, by virtue of having the
ability to see more of the environment, extract more information from
the dream - but even then, it's not going to be information that the
dreamer didn't _know_, although the dreamer may not _consciously_ know
it, or know that s/he knows.

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Jeff Zeitlin, Editor
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